Post by Electrical Code Academy Staff on Dec 5, 2018 10:35:46 GMT -6
Greetings Guys (and Gals),
I got an email from a guy who I guess was feeling guilty about an installation and just wanted to ask a question regarding it. He said it was ok to share here for an open discussion.
Here is what he wrote:
"Mr. Abernathy,
I have been listening to your podcasts and watching for videos since all the way back when you did the Electrical Guru stuff. My success in this industry is largely due to your motivating me in your videos and podcasts. However, I feel dirty or tainted due to a service call I did the other day and want to come clean and get your opinion on the situation. Let me describe the situation.
I went to a service call to replace an existing ceiling fan with a new one, much lighter (only 18 pounds). When I removed the ceiling fan I noticed it was a plastic nail-up box and simply a 14-2 romex in the box and a singles switch on the wall. The plastic box has held the existing fan and light kit for over 15 years with no signs of being loose and the existing ceiling fan was twice as heavy as the one I was asked to install. Well, the box had long 8/32 screws in it and everything seemed solid and no cracks in the box. I informed the customer that the wrong box was used originally and that I would be installing a new ceiling fan onto a box that would not be permitted today in a new installation. I offered to replace it and said it would more than likely cost her another hour or so plus material. The customer said the other held it for 15 years so use the same box and install the fan.
So I did and it looks very solid and no movement of the box. I also used 1 3/4 inch 8/32 screws as well. Would you have replaced the box, gone in the attic and braced it?"
Greetings XXXXXXX,
Thank you for the great comments on my videos and podcasts. I am so glad that you enjoy them and have advanced your career using them to your advantage. I will also forgive the "romex" statement as it is actually called nonmetallic-sheathed cable but we all know what you mean. Well, that is always a tough one since we all know that in a new installation you would use a listed fan box and this would not be an issue. In your case, you walked into what is more than likely something every electrician in the US has come across. There is a good chance that 15 years ago the ceiling box was not required to be a listed fan box and since the installation is existing and you are simply swapping a ceiling fan for a ceiling fan you really have only two options. 1) install the new box and charge the client who will not understand why you are charging them to change a perfectly good box or 2) do as the customer wants and replace the fan and inform them of that fact and move on. I see you choose the ladder.
If the fan is truly only 18 pounds, even with downforce I do not see that being dramatic and I would think the 8/32 screws would be adequate. Does that make it "code compliant" for a new installation...no but you took down the old fan and now you have to make a choice. Honestly, and I know I am going to get the HOLY CROWD excited but I would not lose any sleep over the installation but make the customer aware that the existing box is not compliant and that you can if they choose to, change the box for them. Is it compliant in today's code NOPE...would it have been compliant at the time of the original installation Yep If I change a receptacle in a dwelling that has ungrounded receptacles because one is damaged so I have to update the entire house to establish grounding....nope.....but i could recommend a GFCI at the source...anyway you're not alone in your struggle but I would not lose sleep over it.
Good luck and press forward.
I got an email from a guy who I guess was feeling guilty about an installation and just wanted to ask a question regarding it. He said it was ok to share here for an open discussion.
Here is what he wrote:
"Mr. Abernathy,
I have been listening to your podcasts and watching for videos since all the way back when you did the Electrical Guru stuff. My success in this industry is largely due to your motivating me in your videos and podcasts. However, I feel dirty or tainted due to a service call I did the other day and want to come clean and get your opinion on the situation. Let me describe the situation.
I went to a service call to replace an existing ceiling fan with a new one, much lighter (only 18 pounds). When I removed the ceiling fan I noticed it was a plastic nail-up box and simply a 14-2 romex in the box and a singles switch on the wall. The plastic box has held the existing fan and light kit for over 15 years with no signs of being loose and the existing ceiling fan was twice as heavy as the one I was asked to install. Well, the box had long 8/32 screws in it and everything seemed solid and no cracks in the box. I informed the customer that the wrong box was used originally and that I would be installing a new ceiling fan onto a box that would not be permitted today in a new installation. I offered to replace it and said it would more than likely cost her another hour or so plus material. The customer said the other held it for 15 years so use the same box and install the fan.
So I did and it looks very solid and no movement of the box. I also used 1 3/4 inch 8/32 screws as well. Would you have replaced the box, gone in the attic and braced it?"
Greetings XXXXXXX,
Thank you for the great comments on my videos and podcasts. I am so glad that you enjoy them and have advanced your career using them to your advantage. I will also forgive the "romex" statement as it is actually called nonmetallic-sheathed cable but we all know what you mean. Well, that is always a tough one since we all know that in a new installation you would use a listed fan box and this would not be an issue. In your case, you walked into what is more than likely something every electrician in the US has come across. There is a good chance that 15 years ago the ceiling box was not required to be a listed fan box and since the installation is existing and you are simply swapping a ceiling fan for a ceiling fan you really have only two options. 1) install the new box and charge the client who will not understand why you are charging them to change a perfectly good box or 2) do as the customer wants and replace the fan and inform them of that fact and move on. I see you choose the ladder.
If the fan is truly only 18 pounds, even with downforce I do not see that being dramatic and I would think the 8/32 screws would be adequate. Does that make it "code compliant" for a new installation...no but you took down the old fan and now you have to make a choice. Honestly, and I know I am going to get the HOLY CROWD excited but I would not lose any sleep over the installation but make the customer aware that the existing box is not compliant and that you can if they choose to, change the box for them. Is it compliant in today's code NOPE...would it have been compliant at the time of the original installation Yep If I change a receptacle in a dwelling that has ungrounded receptacles because one is damaged so I have to update the entire house to establish grounding....nope.....but i could recommend a GFCI at the source...anyway you're not alone in your struggle but I would not lose sleep over it.
Good luck and press forward.